Auf der anderen Seite des Grossen Teichs

Alles rund um die Sondergemeinschaft Neuapostolische Kirche (NAK), die trotz bedenklicher Sonderlehren (u.a. Versiegelung, Entschlafenenwesen mit Totenmission, Totentaufe, Totenversiegelung und Totenabendmahl, Heilsnotwenigkeit der NAK-Apostel, Erstlingsschaft, ..), weiterhin "einem im Kern doch ... exklusiven Selbstverständnis", fehlendem Geschichtsbewusstsein und Aufarbeitungswillen, speziell für die Zeit des Dritten Reiches, der DDR, der Bischoffs-Botschaft ("... Ich bin der Letzte, nach mir kommt keiner mehr. ..."), sowie ihrer jüngsten Vergangenheit und unter erheblichem Unmut ehemalicher NAK-Mitglieder, auch Aussteiger genannt, die unter den missbräuchlichen Strukturen und des auf allen Ebenen ausgeprägten Laienamtes der NAK gelitten haben, weiterhin leiden und für die die NAK nach wie vor eine Sekte darstellt, im April 2019 als Gastmitglied in die ACK Deutschland aufgenommen wird.

#11 Beitrag von GG001 » 02.01.2008, 16:19

Oh look, there are a couple more books recently released for the NAC Book of the Month Club:

"...Just Better Off", by DA Freund. A retrospective look at life as the exclusive-sorry-particular souls selected by God to be the Bride of Christ. Learn how to diplomatically tell your "Christian" friends their sins are not forgiven over coffee and kuchen.

"Get the Hell Out!", an entertaining collection of Kraus-isms sure to bring back a lifetime of memories. Includes a CD with service snippets of your favorite moments, including the infamous "LA Mothers' Day Massacre".

"I Shouldn't Say It", by DA Latorcia, in which he says even more things that he shouldn't say. This page turner includes so many foot-in-mouth comments you will want to wash your own feet! Includes favorites such as "Offerings for the Dead" and "Over this Altar of Mine", plus previously unreleased sermons bashing other major religions. Includes copy of official NAKI cease and desist letter.

"I Know You Think You Know What I Said, But If I Don't Know What I Said, Than How Can You Know What I Said?" by Peter Johning. PJ, the Al Frankin of the NAC, takes on us a magical journey into the high flying spin world of NAKI media secretary. Experience a day-in-the-life of a media guru faced with explaining away a 50 year old unfulfilled prophecy regarding the return of Christ. Learn what PJ really thinks about Deaconess in the Chapter "Letter, Letters, We Get Letters Every Day."

Aus dem NACboard


#12 Beitrag von GG001 » 04.01.2008, 21:01

Shaquille hat geschrieben:
Time to Sack Up

After more than 50 years of controversy the prophecy still remains a problem for the NAC. Why is it so hard for NAKI to understand that the issue will not can not go away without honestly addressing it? Certainly it is difficult to admit mistake, and requires putting at risk church doctrine concerning apostles as the messengers of God. But the church simply digs the hole deeper by trying to explain away the prophecy and provide false reasons to cover the fact that those who were right about Bischoff were driven from the church. It has become the NAC version of Watergate--the manuevering to cover the truth has begun to eclipse the wrongness of the prophecy in the first place.

AB monitors, I hope you see how this continues to negatively impact the church. The prophecy has not blown over in 50 years, and with the internet and new sources of information available, will never go away. There is an endless supply of quotes, stories, and life changing events that are linked to this Bischoff debacle and they will continue to play out daily. Where do you think this is headed? (* siehe Fussnote)

But this is more than a public relations massacre. The failure to reconcile with those in and out of the NAC who were hurt, driven from the church or who unalterably changed their lives as a result of the false prophecy, has not escaped God's eyes. He will not lay blessings upon a church that refuses to act like an agent of Christ. The church will continue to flounder until it practices what it preaches about reconciliation.

Aus dem NACboard
(*) Shaquille bezieht sich offensichtlich auf eine ganze Reihe von Zitaten aus Kirchenveroeffentlichungen der 50er Jahre, die im NACboard in letzter Zeit zu lesen sind und auf die ich hier nicht jeweils verwiesen habe. Das Lesen verursacht ein voellig unwirkliches Gefuehl.


#13 Beitrag von GG001 » 09.01.2008, 19:43

"deaconess" schreibt im NACboard:

paper trail

Reading Drave's Report raises several questions:
The New Apostolic Church Between 1938 and 1955, Developments and Problems, Synthesis

...This research is based on extensive source material (correspondence of the Chief Apostle, the Apostles and other persons involved, minutes of Apostles' conferences, publications from the Bischoff publishing house and writings originating with the various groups that separated from the NAC). Collecting and interpreting the sources took a lot of time since our church has no central archives and since access to the archives of regional churches sometimes proved difficult and may still do. The insights and results the work group arrived at are based on the sources that were made available to us. These are listed in the appendices of the individual research papers.
Let us make it quite clear once more: The papers handed in are based on documents that have been interpreted according to the methods in use among professional historians, thus the results and conclusions are backed up by careful research and critical consideration of the sources. They are not based on "history from hearsay" or preconceived ideas. If anybody should claim to arrive at different results, those will be considered in the context of previous findings and the sources known to us...
How many members are there in the Work Group "History of the NAC"? I ask this because it would seem that hunting down over 3,000 documents, when there were no central archives, would be a dauntless task. Did anyone work full time on this effort? Certainly, Apostle Drave must have other responsibilities as an apostle that he would not have been able to.

As there is no central archive, I would have to assume that there is no cataloguing of NAC documents, either. How would they even know of the existence of the various documents and where to look for them? Because of that, just the effort of trying to locate reliable sources must have required many, many hours. The work group was commissioned in October 1999 and Drave presented his findings to the District Apostles in May 2007. It's really quite amazing that they were able to amass so many documents, devote time to researching each one, and then construct research papers pertaining to them. Three thousand documents... 7 1/2 years! Doing some math: 3,000 documents divided by 1,950 days ( 7.5years X 52 weeks X 5 work-days) works out to over 1.5 documents per day. That's a HUGE load when one considers that they must find the document, research authenticity of facts contained, discuss findings, draw conclusions, compose agreed upon findings, circulate for approval... what a work load!!!! Shouldn't workhorses, such as these, have been able to address/incorporate the VAG documents presented to the work group prior to the report's release in December 2007?

The sheer volume of sources available - "correspondence of the Chief Apostle, the Apostles and other persons involved, minutes of Apostles' conferences, publications from the Bischoff publishing house and writings originating with the various groups that separated from the NAC" is overwhelming. Would the majority of those documents for this report of NAC history between 1938 - 1955 have been produced in those seventeen years? Perhaps, including several years beyond, one could use the figure of 20 years. 3,000 documents divided by 1,040 weeks suggests that there was on average close to 3 relevant documents produced per week, if indeed all 3,000 documents referred to in the report were relevant. What hot topics these must have been! (I'm curious how many documents have been generated following the Information Evening... and who.... 50 years down the road... will be commissioned to review them! )

I don't recall. Did the work group advertise their study in an attempt to gather as much material as possible? Or was there just a general request made to the various District Apostle Districts asking for any information they might have? Are copies of all of the work group's correspondence requesting information available for review? What was the date of correspondence with the VAG requesting any pertinent documents they might have in order to present a more accurate and unbiased report? I would assume that should be one of the first requests made from the work group in order to quell any possible accusations that they weren't thorough or were somewhat biased in their investigation. Also, if the VAG had been informed of the ongoing delving into the history, wouldn't they have supplemented their original contributions as new discoveries were made? They, of course, wish to find the "truth" as well!

As it appears the work group has amassed a wealth of material, where will it now be stored? Will it be accessible to future historians -- New Apostolic and non-New Apostolic? Is a list of catalogued material available? Are all of the documents obtained available to the VAG for review? I'd ask if they were available for my review... but I don't understand German... and I wouldn't want my translator to have a heart attack!


#14 Beitrag von GG001 » 09.01.2008, 21:14

Ein BezAeltester Klene aus den Niederlanden hat sich in der niederlaendischen Zeitung "Trouw" in einem Artikel zu Wort gemeldet. Im NACboard ist eine englische Uebersetzung zu finden:

Second article in de newspaper Trouw on january 8 2008. With a comment of an active districts elder in Holland.

Ex-apostel rijt oude wonden open
Ex-apostle re-opens old wounds

De kritiek die ex-apostel Gerrit Sepers op zijn kerk heeft verwoord in een Open Brief, is heftig en omvangrijk. Leden van de Nieuw-apostolische kerk laten zich op website! soms laatdunkend uit over Sepers.
The criticism of ex-apostle Gerrit Sepers against the church, in his Open Letter, is "harsh" and detailed. Members of the NAC commented on the website, some in condescending tone about Sepers.

N. Klene, districtsvoorganger van de NAK in Noord-Holland, is daar ongelukkig mee. "Die heftigheid komt doordat Sepers een heel gewaardeerd man was. Gelovigen voelden zich beschadigd toen hij in 2005 als apostel vertrok en die wond wordt opengehaald. Ik had liever gezien dat ze, voordat ze reageerden, er een nachtje over hadden geslapen."
N Klene, district leader of the NAK in North-Holland, is not happy with the Open Letter. "The harshness is because Sepers was an appreciated person. Believers were hurt when he gave up his apostle ministry in 2005 and that the wound is being re-opened. I would rather have seen that he, before he reacted, "slept on it"."

Klene vindt Sepers' kritiek op een bijeenkomst op 4 december 2007 begrijpelijk. Daar ging de kerkleiding vanuit het hoofdkantoor in Zürich in op de geschiedenis van het kleine kerkgenootschap. Klene: "Ik had dat ook liever anders gezien. Men opende de aanval op mensen die in de jaren vijftig de kerk verlaten hadden en voor zichzelf zijn begonnen. Terwijl ik vind dat je beter vooruit kunt kijken."
Klene understands the reasons for for Sepers' criticism on the 4 December meeting. The church leadership, from the head-office in Zurich, went in on the history of this small church community. Klene : "I would also rather have had it differently. Men re-opened the attack on people who, in the fifities, left the church and started fresh. I find that it is better to look forward."

De NAK was in Nederland en Duitsland net bezig met verzoenende gesprekken met afgescheiden groepen, maar die voelen zich nu 'geschoffeerd', melden ze zelf. Hun kleine oecumene heeft een flinke duw gekregen, erkent Klene.
The NAK in the Netherlands and Germany were busy with reconciliation talks with split groups, but they now feel more distanced, they reported. This small ecumenical effort, received a "swift kick", Klene acknowledges.

Sepers meende dat het nationaal-socialistische verleden van de NAK, in het bijzonder van 'stamapostel Bischoff' die de kerk drie decennia leidde, vergoelijkt wordt. Klene: "In Nederland is kritiek op hem mogelijk, in Duitsland zou dat wel eens moeilijk kunnen liggen."
Sepers believes that the national-socialistic past of the NAK, especially CA Bischoff who was leader of the church for 3 decades, is merely "glossed" over. Klene : "In the Netherlands, cricitism about Bischoff is possible, in Germany this is not so easy".

Sepers zelf zegt dat hij stof wilde doen opwaaien met zijn Open Brief en dat dat nu gelukt is. Wel vreest hij dat 'de haviken binnen deze kerkelijke organisatie hiermee aan de haal gaan en de onschuldige gelovigen weer meer in de tang nemen'.
Sepers himself said that he wants to "fan the flames" with his Open Letter and that he is not happy. He fears that "the hawks in this religious organisation want to "capture" more innocent believers in their talons".

Reactie Gerrit Sepers:
Gerrit Sepers' reaction:

"Mijn open brief heeft binnen de gelederen van de NAK veel stof doen opwaaien. Dat was ook de bedoeling.
De publicatie in Trouw heeft de gemoederen nog meer aangewakkerd.

"My open letter caused quite a few eruptions in the NAK. That was my intention. The publication in Trouw also caused an emotional reaction.

Tegen dat stuk heb ik uiteraard helemaal geen bezwaar. Trouw hoefde daar geen toestemming voor te vragen, want het handelt om een open brief. Glashelder.
I am not upset about it. Trouw didn't have to ask permission, as it dealt with an open letter.

Ik schrok wel even van de kop boven het artikel en het gebruik van het woord 'concentratiekamp'. Niet zozeer om het woord zelf, want dat had ik zelf reeds gebruikt. Mijn zorg was dat de haviken binnen deze kerkelijke organisatie hiermee aan de haal zouden gaan.
I still had a fright when I read the heading of the article, using the words "concentration camp". Not the word in itself, as I used it already, but my concern was that the hawks in this religious organisation, would get going with this.

En dat ze mij nog meer zouden gaan verketteren. Daar lig ik persoonlijk niet wakker van, maar men zou weer een reden hebben om het vijandsbeeld van de boze buitenwereld, in casu de afvallige apostel, neer te zetten. En de onschuldige gelovigen weer meer in de tang te nemen.
And that they would "destroy" me even more. That doesn't cause me sleepless nights, but they were given another reason to further "put down" the enemy from the evil "world" outside, in this case the ex-aposgtle. And that innocent believers once again will be caught in their "talons".

Terwijl er toch zeer ernstige zaken aan de hand zijn. Aan de reacties van diversen - waar ik me echt voor schaam - is duidelijk wat er aan de hand is....
Trouw heeft de zaak nog scherper en helderder neergezet met een vlijmscherpe schrijverspen. Chapeau!"

There are serious matters at hand. As for the various reactions - of which I am ashamed - it is clear what is at hand... Trouw managed to report in a sharp and clear manner.

(BTW district elder N. Klene is a brother of the dutch apostle P. Klene)


#15 Beitrag von tergram » 10.01.2008, 07:53

Zu immer wieder aufkommenden Diskussion und Reklamationen bei den englischsprachigen Beiträgen:

GG001 hat sein Anliegen mit dem Forumsbetreiber abgestimmt. Dieser ist einverstanden und hat eine positive Entscheidung getroffen. Nachzulesen auf Seite 1 dieses Threads. Damit sind alle weiteren Diskussionen überflüssig.

Beiträge, die z.b. fehlende Übersetzungen in die deutsche Sprache reklamieren oder sich kritisch mit der Einstellung anderssprachiger Beiträge generell beschäftigen, wurden und werden daher ohne gesonderte Benachrichtigung gelöscht:


Apokryphen nicht mehr generell massgeblich fuer Doktrin?

#16 Beitrag von GG001 » 12.01.2008, 11:44

As far as I know the official statement as of 2005 is till as follows:

District Apostle Meeting established statements on the Apocrypha
(04.11.2005) Zurich. The Apocrypha - that is, the later writings of the Old Testament - are just as binding for the faith and doctrine of the New Apostolic Church as the other writings of the Old Testament. Doctrinal statements of the New Apostolic Church can thus be legitimated or supported by quotations from the Old Testament Apocrypha. So states a resolution of the District Apostle Meeting that took place in Zurich at the end of October.

Is there something newer?

"Knot Lost" im NACboard
"QFTNAC" antwortet:
New Statement?

Hi Phil 413 & Knot Lost,

I was recently with someone who received the circular (word of life) for February 08. Enclosed was another circular containing general statements pertaining to NAC Doctrine. One of the issues addressed was the Apocrypha.

They no longer accept Esdras I & II as valid for Doctrine. They also said the subheading "New Apostolic Church" was not included in the original text and it should not be viewed as prophetic relating to the NAC.

I am unsure whether these statements are new or if they were previously released.


Siehe NACboard
Das muesste doch auch in den deutschen Leitgedanken veroeffentlicht worden sein?


#17 Beitrag von tergram » 12.01.2008, 12:18

Schau mal, ob dir das hilft: ... cle/12742/

Ich halte diesen verbindlichen Beschluss der BAV für sachlich unsauber und nicht gründlich recherchiert.

Es wird ja allgemein zwischen alttestamentarischen und neutestamentarischen Apokryphen unterschieden. Bei den alttestamentarischen gibt es wiederum Unterscheidungen zwischen dem evangelischen und katholischen Kanon. Die Katholiken zählen z.B. auch das 3. + 4. Buch Esra zu den Apokryphen. Weiteres siehe:

Zu diesen Feinheiten gibt der Beschluss der BAV keine Auskunft. "Neuapostolisch" gelesen, gehören daher sämtliche Apokryphen zum Glaubensgebäude der NAKI. Das würde dem von dir zitierten Beitrag widersprechen.

Welcher AT der NAK kennt sämtliche Apokryphen bzw. weiss überhaupt von deren Existenz und Relevanz für die Glaubenslehre der Kirche? Vom gemeinen Geschwist mal ganz zu schweigen... :roll:

(Ganz am Rande: Möchtest du zum Thema einen neuen Thread aufmachen?)


#18 Beitrag von GG001 » 12.01.2008, 18:06

Das koennte ich, falls Interesse an dem Thema besteht.

Danke fuer Deinen Verweis auf die NAKI Seite; Entsprechendes hat ja auch der Schreiber im NACboard auf Englisch zitiert. Die Seite habe ich 2005 nicht speziell auf "neuapostolisch", sondern einfach so gelesen, wie sie geschrieben steht. Verstehe ich es aus diesem Blickwinkel etwa falsch, wenn ich alle Apokryphen in dieser Meldung (s. Zitat unten) subsummiert sehe?

Zuerst einmal wollte ich nur fragen, ob diese Schaerfung auch in DE in den Leitgedanken fuer Februar bekannt gegeben worden ist.
tergram hat geschrieben:Welcher AT der NAK kennt sämtliche Apokryphen bzw. weiss überhaupt von deren Existenz und Relevanz für die Glaubenslehre der Kirche? Vom gemeinen Geschwist mal ganz zu schweigen...
Pater Johanning hat in WUP von drei "Theologen" in der NAK gesprochen (von denen aber ... ach, lassen wir das). Wenigstens einer davon wird doch auch Bibelkunde gehoert haben und sie somit kennen und ihre Relevanz einschaetzen koennen. Ueber die Relevanz fuer die Glaubenslehre der Kirche entscheidet die BAV, wie aus dem Artikel hervorgeht, nicht ein irgend ein AT:
Die Apokryphen, also die alttestamentlichen Spätschriften, sind für Glaube und Lehre der Neuapostolischen Kirche ebenso verbindlich wie die anderen Schriften des Alten Testaments. (...) So lautet ein Beschluss der Bezirksapostelversammlung (BAV), die Ende Oktober in Zürich stattfand.
Es waere spannend zu wissen, wie ein BAp zu (s)einer Meinung in dieser Frage kommt und nach welchen Kriterien die BAps entscheiden - und warum eigentlich die BAps das entscheiden.


#19 Beitrag von GG001 » 14.01.2008, 16:33

Use of resources

The church endeavours to manage its affairs with as little administration as possible. All financial records are public upon request. Bookkeeping and accounting requirements are largely handled by independent Certified Public Accountants.

Auf Wikipedia
GG001: We can dream, can't we? Diese am 2007-01-13 eingefuehrte Aenderung duerfte eine "Ente" sein. Wenn nicht, muesste die deutsche Wikipedia baldmoeglichst geaendert werden :mrgreen:

The church endeavours to manage its affairs with as little administration as possible and with no financial accountability or reporting to the members at all. Bookkeeping and accounting requirements are largely handled by independent Certified Public Accountants.


#20 Beitrag von GG001 » 15.01.2008, 10:15

From what I read, I thought that DA Schlaphoff was Asst. Chief Apostle during WW II and that DA Kuhlen was Asst. CA from 1948 to 1950. Then I read references in NAC NA publications from circa 1950 still referring to Schlaphoff as Asst. CA. which puzzled me. Then I read the following from the NYDN of 2/15/50 which lists both as Asst. CA at the same time. I wondering what the story is with 2 asst. CA's at the same time.

Aus dem NACboard. Dort ist auch die Seite aus den NYDN (New York District News) abgebildet. Fettdruck von mir, GG001.
"On January 3rd, the Asst. Chief Apostle Kuhlen came to Holland for the first time since January 1939. (...)
On Saturday, January 14th, the Asst. Chief Ap. Schlaphoff left by plane (...)
Both Asst. Cfief Apostles have done exceedingly much towards the progress of the work in Holland."

Zwei Stammapostelhelfer gleichzeitig?

Allg. Hinweis: "morse2000" graebt derzeit eine ganze Anzahl alter Dokumente aus, scannt sie ein und stellt sie im NACboard unter "Meetings/synods/letters to members" ein. Die meisten sind in Englisch, aber er hat auch einzelne in God's mother tongue (Deutsch).

Vielleicht wird daraus ein kleines virtuelles NAC Geschichtsarchiv.

Zurück zu „NAK - Neuapostolische Kirche“